Tech Exec Wellness Podcast: Conversations to Reignite Your Soul
In the fast-paced world of technology, where innovation and disruption are the norm, tech executives often find themselves caught in a whirlwind of high-pressure decision-making, long working hours, and constant connectivity. The relentless pursuit of success and the demands of their roles can take a toll on their mental, emotional, and physical well-being. However, a new narrative that emphasizes the importance of tech executive wellness as a crucial component of sustainable success is emerging. This is the story of the tech executive's journey to rediscover balance, prioritize well-being, and ultimately thrive in their personal and professional lives.
If you're ready to embark on a wellness journey that will empower you to live your best life, I invite you to subscribe to Tech Exec Wellness, Navigating the Digital Balance, wherever you listen to podcasts. Together, let's cultivate harmony within ourselves and radiate positive energy to the world. Each week, we'll explore a wide range of topics related to wellness, inviting experts, thought leaders, and everyday individuals who have transformed their lives through mindful living, self-care, practices, and holistic approaches. We'll dive deep into areas such as nutrition, fitness, mental health, spirituality, mindfulness, personal growth, and more.
Tech Exec Wellness Podcast: Conversations to Reignite Your Soul
Ep. 14: Interview With Jen Easterly, Director of CISA: A Journey Through Cybersecurity, Leadership, & Music
Get ready for an engaging and inspiring conversation with Jen Easterly, Director of the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency (CISA). Join Mel and Erika as they delve into Jen's incredible career journey, from her service in the U.S. Army to her strategic roles at the White House and NSA. We'll also explore her passion for music 🎶 and her dreams of rocking the electric guitar 🎸 post-CISA. Keep your eyes and ears open 😎
Beyond her impressive career in cybersecurity, Jen is a multifaceted individual with a deep commitment to various causes. In our conversation, we'll learn about her dedication to mental health advocacy and her strong advocacy for destigmatizing mental health issues in high-pressure environments. Jen will share poignant stories about her son's struggles during the pandemic and how it has shaped her perspective on the importance of mental well-being.
This episode presents a fascinating blend of leadership, national security, and personal passions, offering a unique insight into the diverse interests and experiences that have shaped Jen into the remarkable leader she is today. Join us for an enlightening and thought-provoking discussion that uncovers the person behind the distinguished professional, revealing the values and beliefs that drive her in both her career and personal life.
Please visit our website https://www.techexecwellness.com to stay up to date and subscribe to our newsletter!
Welcome back to another episode of Tech Exec Wellness. I'm Melissa and I'm Erica. Today we're thrilled to have Jen Easterly. Jen Easterly is the Director of the Cyber Security and Infrastructure Security Agency, also known as CISA. She was nominated by President Biden in April 2021 and unanimously confirmed by the Senate on July 12, 2021. As Director, Jen leads CISA's efforts to understand, manage and reduce risk to the cyber and physical infrastructure. She is a proud mom, a mental health advocate and a Rubik's Cube enthusiast, and an inspiring electric guitarist.
Speaker 1:Before serving in her current role, jen was the head of firm resilience at Morgan Stanley, responsible for ensuring preparedness and response to business disrupting operational incidents and risk to the firm. She also helped build and serve as the first global head of Morgan Stanley's Cyber Security Fusion Center, the firm's center of gravity for cyber defense operations. Jen has a long tradition of public service, to include two tours at the White House, most recently as Special Assistant to President Obama and Senior Director for Counterterrorism, and earlier as Executive Assistant to National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice. She also served as the Deputy for Counterterrorism of the National Security Agency. Jen is a two-time recipient of the Bronze Star. Jen retired from the US Army after more than 20 years of service in intelligence and cyber operations, including tours of duty in Haiti, the Balkans, iraq and Afghanistan. She's responsible for standing up the Army's first cyber battalion. She was also instrumental in the design and creation of the United States Cyber Command.
Speaker 1:A distinguished graduate of the United States Military Academy at West Point, jen holds a master's degree in philosophy, politics and economics from the University of Oxford, where she studied as a Rhodes Scholar. She is the recipient of numerous honors and awards, including the 2023 Sisterhood Award from Girls who Code, the 2022 National Defense University Admiral Grace Hopper Award, the 2020 Bradley W Snyder Changing the Narrative Award and the 2018 James W Foley Legacy Foundation. American Hostage Freedom Award. A member of the Council on Foreign Relations and a French American Foundation young leader, jen is the past recipient of the Aspen Finance Leaders Fellowship, the National Security Institute Visiting Fellowship, the New American Foundation Senior International Security Fellowship, the Council on Foreign Relations International Affairs Fellowship and the Director National Security Agency Fellowship. So, jen, we are so delighted to have you on the show and, before we talk about Welles, erica and I would like to know what your favorite music genre is and if you could tell us about a memorable concert that you attended. So welcome to the show.
Speaker 2:Well, first of all, it's great to be here. I was very excited about this for a long time, so thanks for asking me. I love all music genres, and so it's very hard for me to pinpoint one that is a favorite or even a favorite concert experience. I'll go back to my most recent one, I guess, because it was kind of nice.
Speaker 2:I was out in Vegas and it was my husband's birthday, so we got tickets to go see you Too at the Sphere which is very, very cool and, interestingly, you Too was the first concert that I saw when I was in high school the Unforgettable Fire, very nice. I've seen him several times, so, and the latest experience was terrific as well. So thanks for asking.
Speaker 3:I love you Too. My favorite song is With or Without you. Are you a fan of that song, Jen I?
Speaker 2:like all of the you Too catalog. I mean, of course, With or Without you is great. I really like Pride.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I mean, I think they're all really, really, really good, and one of the things that I picked up over the past couple of years to help deal with the stress of this job is electric guitar. And you know, there's the electric guitar. The person who plays guitar for the band is just fantastic, so I aspire to be as cool as him.
Speaker 1:So do you think after CISA you might join a band, you might do something like that that is actually my intent, to be honest.
Speaker 2:Oh well, that's awesome. Yeah, we call it CISA, by the way. So a lot of people need CISA. Yeah, people say CISA, cisa. It's CISA, cisa, which is one of the first things I had to learn when I came to CISA, because I didn't. I wasn't sure how to pronounce it either, but I don't think I'll ever be near like even a tenth as good as the edge, but I do want to. I want to go back to New York City, I want to have a bar and I want to be in a band and do a master's degree in art history. That is somewhere in my future.
Speaker 3:I like that. That's amazing. Yes, I'm a little different right. Yeah, I'll be following the rest of your career to see if I can go see you in concert eventually when you become super popular.
Speaker 1:Yep, I'm in that too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know if that's going to happen, but we can all have dreams, right? Yeah?
Speaker 3:exactly. Well, thank you for actually saying that it's called CISA, because I called it CISA for very long. And before we dive in, can you start off by telling us a little bit about CISA, for those who are not familiar with the agency and your role within it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, 100%. So CISA, the Cybersecurity and Imprastructure Security Agency we love security so much we had to have it twice in our name. We were stood up at the end of 2018, so we're a little over five years old to play two key roles. So we serve as America's Cyber Defense Agency and also as the National Coordinator for Critical Infrastructure Resilience and Security. So together, what our mission is is to lead the national effort to understand, manage and reduce risk to the cyber and physical infrastructure that Americans rely on every hour of every day for water and transportation and communication, and healthcare and education. So it's really the networks and the systems and the data that power our daily lives.
Speaker 2:And one of the challenges, but I think one of the things that I love most about the mission is, of course, the vast majority of that critical infrastructure is owned and operated by the private sector, and we're not a regulator. We don't do law enforcement, we don't collect intel. We're 40% veterans, but we're not military, so everything we do is by, with and through partners, and so it's a lot about building trusted partnerships. So you need both those hard skills, the technical skills, but you also really need those human skills of how to build good relationships, how to communicate well, how to create trust and partnerships, and I think that's one of the most exciting things about building a startup agency that is very focused on by Wiss and True Partners.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that is very exciting. I actually didn't know a lot of that, so I learned something new today as well. So thank you for sharing that. My pleasure. So, sticking with this topic, can you and you know veterans can you tell us about your journey into the military and now as the US director of CISA?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Mel said veteran, right, yes, I am, yeah, so you know, I don't know what your experience was, but I think a lot of folks that end up in the military have somebody in their family that was in the military. In my case, my dad was a Vietnam veteran. He was a high school dropout. He had a pretty rough upbringing and so he dropped out of high school and he went off and joined the Army and he ended up in Vietnam in the early days of the conflict. He was there from 62 to 63 with the Army Security Agency and that was before the violence got really bad. And it was actually a positive experience for him. He was there for a year and it really allowed him to mature and really sort of bloom as a person, having this experience overseas. And he came back and put himself through grad school and actually raised some money so he could go back and build an orphanage in Vietnam, and so it was a very. It was an experience that was really life-changing for him and very maturing. And he came back, you know, as I said, finished his GED, ended up going to college, grad school, and he would tell a lot of stories about his time and actually in 99, he and I went back to visit Vietnam. It was his first time going back and we had this fantastic visit all throughout the country, from the Mekong Delta all the way up north to Hanoi and Haleung Bay, and it was just an amazing, amazing opportunity. And he had always talked about his time in military services Very much influenced me when I was young and I had other grandfather and great-grandfather who were in the service as well, and so it was something that I wanted to do.
Speaker 2:Since I was very young, I applied early to West Point. I got in early. I always sort of joke about how I made the mistake of never visiting the school before I got there on what they call our day reception day, a very hot day in July, and so I was just terribly unprepared for the physical rigor, the emotional stress, the mental pressures, and it was a really, really difficult time acclimating to it and many times I thought about quitting and going home, and I ended up staying in, and I'm glad that I did West Point.
Speaker 2:In those days there was very few women there, we were about 9%, and so it was not a wonderful experience to be honest, but it did really make me who I am today and set me on a path that I think gave me a lot of important opportunities and particular leadership opportunities that helped shape who I am and what I've been able to do in my career. So, looking back on it, I'm really proud of graduating from there, but it was definitely very tough in the early days.
Speaker 1:That's wonderful. Do you still watch the Army-Navy games? Do you ever go to those games at all, Jen I do.
Speaker 2:And this is where I have to say beat Navy. You know we've done pretty well the past couple of years, even though I think you have.
Speaker 2:Yeah, navy's up in the series. I wasn't able to go last year I went two years ago but I'm going this year because it's pretty close, so I am super excited about it. We always get together with a lot of friends, some of them still classmates of mine, and then we have a whole group of veterans that get together. So it's always a great weekend and I'm particularly excited about it this year.
Speaker 1:You know that's awesome and you know I just wanted to touch on this. Obviously, this is one of the reasons we brought you here, because we wanted your perspective. Cyber is a very high-stress environment and it definitely demands resilience a different kind of person and I think veterans do well, because we're acclimated to the adapt and pivot and you know different things that we deal with at sea or in combat, et cetera. So, for instance, with challenges such as working 12 plus hours while having COVID, a lot of us had done that. We're overwhelmed but we continue to persevere. So sometimes the workload may seem overwhelming due to a lack of man-woman power. Can you share your thoughts on how prioritizing mental wellness can positively impact our resilience and, in turn, the business and security?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know this is something that I've evolved in, I think when I was at West Point, even in the early days when I was a young Army officer in infantry divisions, whether it was the 25th Infantry Division in Hawaii or the 18th Airborne Corps at Fort Bragg, and stationed around the world. You know, as a woman in those types of highly male-dominated environments, you know you want to prove that you're as smart, as as fast, as as capable as the soldiers in your unit and the male peers around you. And you know you sort of take on this almost like armor and you know, in this way, where you become in some way sort of tougher and harder than you would normally be, just because of the environment that you're surrounded by. I think, as I've gotten older in my career and I've had events that happened in my personal life, I have come to be a huge advocate of mental health and well-being. You know, not only was it becoming a mom, becoming older, having different experiences, but in 2001, in December, I lost my little brother to suicide and that was a very jarring I mean for a whole variety of reasons, but it was something completely unexpected and it led me to be very introspective, about not just myself and my family, but my relationships, and it really started me on this journey to ensuring that not only am I taking better care of myself, but really being very deliberate as a leader in terms of helping to build an environment that really champions mental wellness and really a full picture, not just physical health, but mental health, to the point where, you know, when I came to CISA in 2021, I did a lot of sensing sessions and office calls and sat down with our folks, and this was, as you all will recall, so 2021, it was solar winds, and then it was Microsoft Exchange and it was colonial pipeline, and then there had been a very contentious election at the end of 2020.
Speaker 2:And so our folks were pretty burnt out, although they were very much focused on mission. I mean, that's the great thing Nobody comes to the federal government to make money. It's really all about mission. But as I sat down and talked to, in particular, folks from our threat hunt team and our incident response team, they talked a lot about how dedicated they were to the mission, but how burnt out they felt, thank you, and it was very instrumental in sort of inspiring me to say, okay, 2022, we are going to make it the sys a year of mental health and well-being, and we're going to do a bunch of things that really attends to the mental wellness of our workforce whether that's making the mindfulness app, headstays free to all of our employees, setting up meditation rooms, having experts come in and talk about how to deal with stress and how to build resilience to adversity and to difficult times, and so really really leaned into that.
Speaker 2:And the other thing that sort of complementary to that was was we build our culture, and I think organizational culture is really the most important thing when you are building a new organization being very, very deliberate about how you define that culture, sort of the behaviors that you expect from each other and that you aspire to be as an organization. So we have four values. If you go to sysagov forward slash culture, you'll see four values collaboration, innovation, service and accountability. And then we have core principles 12 of them and one of them is make it count, which is really all about ensuring that you have that balance in your life. You know, no one has the quote unquote work-life balance.
Speaker 2:If you work, then you spend most of your waking hours working, but you really need to ensure that you are taking care of yourself, that you are managing your energy, that you're taking time off, because if you're burnt out, you're not going to be good for the mission and you're not going to be good for your teammate. So, as we've woven it into the bedrock of our teams through our organizational culture and as we as leaders me and my team have really signaled from the top the importance of mental health and well-being we have. If leaders prioritize it, we prioritize it, you know, for everybody, up and down the workforce, and so that's become incredibly important, and I think it's really been something that the workforce has responded to, because I've received an enormous amount of feedback about how much difference little things have made, like making you know headspace free for all employees. So it's something that is very important to me personally, but also as a leader, I really like that.
Speaker 1:You shared that story and I'm sorry for your loss. We did an episode on grief last week and I think Jen and I'd like to ask you about this. But oftentimes and I'm a Gen Xer, but it's like push it down, have that military bearing and you kind of carry that over to civilian life. But a person can only withstand so much pressure and I think with COVID and everything that happened, our lives and our work lives kind of started blending in together, and it was after my own illness that Erica and I had met through friends and we decided to put this together, because it seems like everybody in the cyber industry is lacking sleep.
Speaker 1:Nutrition isn't there. If they're in and off planes, they're not getting up from their chair or the rental car, whatever, so they're not moving around as much. And that really scares me, not only as a leader but I think in general, because everybody is working so much and sleep, for instance, it really impacts overall wellness. And you mentioned the Headspace app, which I have as well. Meditation, I think, is really key and I don't think a lot of people at least from my experience, erica, I don't know if you can talk to this A lot of people aren't talking about wellness with their employees and things like meditation or sleep, and I think that really impacts the organization.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it does as well. I do think, and maybe COVID impacted this. You know, before I took the job at SISI, I was at Morgan Stanley, and I got there in early 2017 and I was the head of our Cyber Fusion Center. So I was very focused on understanding, detecting and responding to cyber threats and vulnerabilities. And after we had stood up the center, my boss, who was the head of technology, came to me and said you know, we really like this model, but we think we need a more all hazards approach. And so we were asked to turn the Cyber Fusion Center into the Fusion Resilient Center, which was basically designed to understand, prepare for, respond to, recover and learn from the full range of threats, from cyber attacks to technology outages, to terrorist attacks, to geopolitical unrest, to weather events, to infectious diseases and pandemics. And so we set this thing up in December of 2019. And then, in January of 2020, I all of a sudden became the person who was leading the response to COVID for our firm of 80,000 people, working directly with our chief medical officer.
Speaker 2:Dave Stark, was a wonderful, wonderful person, and one of the things that really hit home to me was the fact that the barriers, the boundaries that typically existed between personal and professional really just came down because you were in meetings and you were seeing little kids there and dogs and you know, essentially while you were engaged in professional stuff, you were involved in people's lives and also you know people were going through a lot of things, whether they were, they were sick themselves or they were worried about their elderly parents or they're worried about their kids, or they had to work while you know their kids were at home and it just really brought home how important it is as a leader to recognize that your job is to make sure that you are.
Speaker 2:It's like being in the military taking care of your troops right, and people are not going to be able to do the mission as effectively as possible unless you are able to ensure that they're helped. Jen, are you a pet owner by chance? It's a great question because and I actually listened to your guys podcast on grief and you know.
Speaker 2:Thank you for your willingness to be vulnerable and and to tell those stories. I mean part of it, I think, is having leaders and executives who are willing to be vulnerable, who are willing to talk about adversity, who are willing to talk about the tragedies that they've experienced in their lives. And what I found is I, as I've gotten older is if you're willing to show that vulnerability that as a young army officer, I absolutely wasn't willing to show, but if you're willing to show that vulnerability as a leader.
Speaker 2:It really helps to build trust, and this job at CISA is really about building trust, because the communities that we work with most often are industry or state and local or academia security researchers, and these are people that wouldn't naturally go running to the government to build a trusted partnership. So in many cases, that vulnerability, that authenticity, is actually key to our success and mission.
Speaker 1:So I'm going to ask a quick question on that. I'll let you pause and get your tea, but I'm just thinking here. So Erica and I we met through her Cyber Queens podcast and one of the things that we immediately took to in our friendship is that vulnerability. And I know she was texting me during the interview and she's like I'm going to ask you this, I'm going to ask you this, and I'm like no, no, no, no, no. And I thought what do I have to lose by being authentic? I mean, if I'm going to help somebody that's out there that's struggling by, you know, let's say that some you know, a close relative died. I think we need to be more compassionate in the workplace. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I totally do, and that that's sort of my point about COVID.
Speaker 2:Right, it is.
Speaker 2:Before then there was always a pretty clear boundary between the professional and the personal life, and just because of the nature of us all working on video, a lot of those barriers naturally fell away, and so I think it just reinforced how important it is to recognize that people are only going to be maximally effective in their mission if you know their full health both physical health and mental health is as good as it can be.
Speaker 2:And you know, the other thing that even made me more of a champion for mental health is, of course, in COVID people were dealing with a lot of issues and so and I frankly think that we're going to see Emma Jen Nexler as well, but my son was in high school during COVID I think there will be a lot of long-term impacts from COVID on mental health at all levels. You know the mixture of COVID and social media, I think can be very you know so isolating and can have a lot of perverse impacts. So I think it just puts an even greater importance on all leaders really championing the ability for people to attend to their full wellness, to include mental health.
Speaker 1:And I know, when we talk about the Jen Nex thing, we were always out and about and, erica, I'm going to give you a hard time like this with the iPhones and all that but I was used to being around people all the time and going to concerts and everything and then shutting it down. I can't imagine what it was like for the kids.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I think really challenging right, very challenging, and I'm going to tell you a quick story about that. First, let me say I am so sorry for your loss and thank you for sharing that with us. Vulnerability is just something we don't see a lot, and the grief episode. I cried during that episode and I was. That was after what I edited out. I was like ugly crying. And I want to say one thing about the kids.
Speaker 3:So I moved to Colorado in 2019 and my youngest was finishing her last year of junior high and then 2020 hit and she started high school during COVID period. Right, she didn't have a chance to make any friends at that time. She's now a senior in high school who's actually in her first year of college. She's brilliant and she's since then made friends because we've been here, you know, for five years. But going from Chicago to here, colorado and then having COVID hit and not being able to make friends I've seen the long-term impacts that it has had on her social life and it makes me very sad, and she's good now. But I really was sad for her because it took her even longer to find friends and to make friends and all of that.
Speaker 3:And when I first moved here, I was traveling a lot, because pre COVID I was traveling a lot and she had the opportunity to kind of bond a little bit, but then she went to high school and then they shut down, so that I think I do agree with you on that that that's going to have long-term impacts and it really does make me sad about that. One thing I wanted to personally ask you and thinking about grief and being authentic during this whole conversation you've talked a lot about how you're. You know, as a leader, you're doing things for you know, wellness at work and mental health, but what do you personally do as a leader outside of CISA to? You know, make sure that you're integrating physical and emotional wellness?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a great question. You know, I was in the Army for 21 years and in that period of time I was a big workout person. But I am not. As if gotten older, I do walk, not as much as I should. I actually just got one of these aura rings, not for physical activity but for sleep. I don't know if, Erica, that was you or Mel that talked about sleep. I think as you get older, the most important thing is to get more sleep. It's not my outside activity, but it's the one I'm very focused on. You know, wake up in the morning and look at my sleep activity and it'll be like 56. Don't be like ah, you know.
Speaker 2:I need more sleep. So that's my gift to myself is like more sleep. But no, I don't know if you can hear, this is what I do. I started doing this like two years ago because it's something I always wanted to do, and then also because my son does this, so it's something we can do together. So here I'll play you a little bit. Oh stop.
Speaker 1:I love the song. Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2:So I keep it in my office actually, and then we have other musical people at CESA we actually do come together for a band. But it is something. First of all it's a skill. So it's a new skill, it's a new way of training your mind and it just brings me so much joy because, as we started out this whole thing, I'm a big music lover and so I've got this great teacher who's in Boulder and so, yeah, it's just, it's been and it really it helps me, from like a stress perspective, to just really concentrate on learning a song. So that's what I do and it has made a huge difference and it's brought me a lot of joy.
Speaker 3:Did you just play that right now, or is that recorded?
Speaker 2:No, I just played it. I have it right here. I keep my guitar in my office. Can we have?
Speaker 1:it one more time. I won't just.
Speaker 2:Great, yeah, I was, because you guys recognize the song right. Oh yeah, I would sing it, but my voice is not that great.
Speaker 3:Beautiful.
Speaker 2:I have shells.
Speaker 1:You've got a fast car. Oh, I was ready to sing, jen. Yeah, you want to sing? Yeah, how do you got it? We?
Speaker 2:could do it. We got a band here, the three of us, totally, totally. Do you guys play? I could play. Second, I could play saxophone.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sorry.
Speaker 3:You could play saxophone. That's awesome.
Speaker 1:We are a band Dorakston.
Speaker 2:Really, that's fantastic. When I was out at RSA you know, the big cybersecurity conference I ran into this woman in a green room. Her name is Merrill Goldberg and it was super interesting because she had a saxophone and a bunch of sheet music. I was like what is all this? And, as it turned out, she was telling the story about her time in the Soviet Union in the late 80s, when she was there with the Klezmer band, taking back stories from the refused necks those who couldn't leave the Soviet Union at the time and the way that they avoided the KGB who, frankly, were chasing them around Moscow was encoding the messages into their music and she became a good friend. I went out and visited her. We did a whole dance class and music routine together, so we're trying to get her to play sax with us in this coming RSA. So yeah, you guys should join. I would love to. Let's do it.
Speaker 3:Erica, we're doing it. Yeah, I'm going to have to be greedy here. What other songs are you really good at, that you?
Speaker 2:left. Oh, am I really good? I wouldn't say really good at, but this is the other one where we'll see if you recognize this one. Yeah, little indigo girls. Yeah, little indigo girls. We got some of that More for your dancing. Yeah, let's see, I'll do one more. Recognize this one. There's a little. Recognize that one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Recognize that one Reptile.
Speaker 3:I didn't recognize. Yes, I did yes.
Speaker 2:And then there's a little. Let's see here, mr Tambourine man, so.
Speaker 3:I thought that that's what it was, but I wasn't sure and I didn't want to sound like Okay.
Speaker 1:I'll just throw myself.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Super, super fun.
Speaker 2:And then I got a little bossa nova that I'm practicing as well. But yeah, it is, it makes me happy, you know, when things like give you joy, yes, yes, yeah. So on your pet questions. So we had. I was lucky because my husband came to my marriage with a beautiful Australian shepherd named Tudor oh, who unfortunately passed, had stomach cancer and passed several years ago, and we couldn't have a dog in our current condo, and it's actually one of the reasons why I'm really glad our lease is expiring, because I'm in love with the idea of getting a little lab or doodle.
Speaker 2:So yes that's going to happen.
Speaker 3:I have a golden doodle, and doodles are literally most amazing. Dogs are the best.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:They're the best. They're so smart, specifically because they are path poodle and the golden doodles different than a lab or doodle, but they're both very cute. I'm just going to warn you, my doodle knows how to open the pantry door and feed himself treats because I have the push down handles in my house so you don't have to turn them, so he can just push them down and he pulls it forward and found the treats. So just be prepared. Oh man, yeah.
Speaker 2:No, I have my two of my girlfriends. Both have little doodles and they just sometimes they'll, and they know that I can't have one yet. So they'll like troll me by sending me these little adorable pictures. It's like, okay, just wait, just wait.
Speaker 3:Just wait, just wait, because then you're going to troll them back, because that's just cruel, exactly. Exactly. I love that. It'll be the best decision you've made the doodle family Totally.
Speaker 1:Totally, I would say you could be like us and have three dogs. Erica and I have three dogs each.
Speaker 2:Oh, really, I don't think we could do that. I mean, my son objects to like small dogs. He would like a 300 pound dog if he could have one, and so there was a little bit of like oh, I don't want to, you know, but he's in college and now I get to choose, so there won't be three, but there will be one, and he or she will be absolutely adorable.
Speaker 3:Yeah, melissa and I are both bully, you know, like the bulldog family, we're both bully fans and between my partner and I we have five dogs. I have three, he has two and you listened to the episode on grief and one of his dogs we had to put him to sleep. His name was Bacon. One of his dogs is an American bulldog and the other one's a pit bull. And then one of my three dogs is part English bulldog and the bulldogs are just so slobbery and you know they will be your best friend and attack you, but they're really, really good dogs too. So if you ever do on another dog, consider me like a dog family.
Speaker 2:I will keep that in mind. They're definitely dog lovers, so yeah, so it will be the next phase.
Speaker 3:Mel has a English bulldog and then a French bulldog, so she's got some bullies in her house too. It's amazing.
Speaker 1:They charged Lisa. So Lisa will be standing up and the bulldog will take this running, charge the English and knock her down because she's so skinny and her legs buckle underneath her. I'm like he's going to end up like hurting her. Really bad.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he, it does hurt, melissa, because my partner's American bulldog, who's very top heavy because he has a huge head and big shoulders, he's very muscular he will come bulldoze me and almost knock me down. And going back to what you said about working out, I'm previous competitive bodybuilder and I work out and I'm fricking strong and my boyfriend is a pro bodybuilder in his free time and he's strong too. And that dog will knock us down. He will. He will knock us down. He's strong. I was like a serious dog. I love it. Yeah, they're great. Well, I'm so glad I'll be waiting to see pictures of your Labradoodle when you're able to get one. Yeah, but I do want to ask you another question around the wellness topic and I would love to hear what you think are some common misconceptions about wellness in the cybersecurity industry and we know how you address things within CISA, but what do you think are the most common misconceptions? Yeah, okay, yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think people and I don't think this is necessarily specific to the cybersecurity industry I just still think there is a stigma to any sort of mental health challenges, and certainly in the military.
Speaker 2:As a veteran, I think there was a real reticence in the military, as you probably know, a real issue with suicide as well.
Speaker 2:Part of a leader's job is to recognize that in any profession and in particular cybersecurity, which can be very high stress at times that it's incredibly important for us to attend to the health and wellness, to include the mental health, of our workforce, and so some of the ridiculous myths around cybersecurity, hackers and hoodies and all of that.
Speaker 2:But at the end of the day, you almost have this image that you would never associate with mental health challenges, and so I think we just need to all recognize that we all have something going on in our life and that's why I very much believe in being kind to people, because you really never know what's going on in their lives. So I just think, at the end of the day, really recognizing and that's why the bedrock of our culture, as I talked about earlier, the first principle is people first, and it is something that we say all the time here, because at the end of the day, of course, the mission is important, but if we're not taking care of our people, if we don't recognize that they and their whole health is vital to our ability to get our mission done, we won't be successful.
Speaker 1:I like that. You just mentioned kindness. Erica and I were talking about that just today and I think that, aside from the civilian sector, for instance, revenue, revenue, revenue, wall Street, wall Street, wall Street the thing is, I think you can accomplish so much more if you have compassion and kindness within the environment, because I think that when we talk about COVID, we're not out there socializing like we were. So I think sometimes that's forgotten or that's been forgotten.
Speaker 2:I do. I think that's so important. One of the experiences I had when I was still in the military was to teach up at West Point at the Department of Social Sciences, which is economics, american politics and international relations, and Mabri got there in 2000. And they have two mottos for the department and one of them is be kind, which is really interesting in that environment. But just having that as such a core ethos for a military environment where you're working with cadets all the time, peers and all of that, I think it's incredibly important and I think it's some ways people think kindness is associated with weakness, but I think being a kind person is really, in many ways, a superpower, because that is, I think, increasingly in a world that can be difficult to navigate your way, and finding people who are willing to be kind and helpful is an extraordinary gift, frankly, and so I think it's something that we need to focus on, frankly, more and more.
Speaker 3:I agree with you. And what happened to kindness? I swear it just went out the window. When did we lose it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of it is just where we're at in society at this point in time. A lot of it is very isolating. Covid had a role there. But the generation I think Melissa was saying the generation we were outside, we were all face to face with people and now a lot of people are on their phones or social media and it can be isolating and you would say things over text or over email that frankly, you wouldn't say face to face and I think that does ultimately have an impact that I think is not a positive one.
Speaker 2:So the most important thing in my life is my son. He's the love of my life, the light of my life, and so the one thing that I will say for him is he is an incredibly kind person. He always looks to see who are the people who are uncomfortable in a situation, who might feel vulnerable in one way or another in a classroom, because they may be new or something, and he will always look out for that and that's the thing that, one of the things I admire a lot about my son, but that is something that I just treasure in him.
Speaker 3:That's great for a young person to have that, because I feel like with the devices and the Gen Z and Gen Alpha that's coming up, they just have grown up on technology and they lose that personability between each other. Yeah, pink time yeah, interesting. Thanks for sharing that.
Speaker 1:So, jen, one last question and we'll wrap it up. We know you're super busy, but with everything that we've talked about and now that we're kind of pivoting toward a world of kindness and compassion and wellness, how important is that, do you think, for our industry success as well as outside of our industry?
Speaker 2:From my perspective, at CISA, we are a government agency and people with technical skills, with cybersecurity skills, they have a lot of options.
Speaker 2:And so if we are not just providing people with a fantastic mission and an opportunity to serve the American people and defend the nation from some of the most serious threats, that's great to have that mission, but if we're not also taking care of people and giving them a positive culture and making sure that we understand that, putting their career growth, their ability to take on different opportunities, their ability to spend time with friends and families as part of growth in the mission, I don't think we'll be able to retain folks.
Speaker 2:And so, again, we really have to recognize that, at the end of the day, really talented people, particularly younger generation, who are not looking to stay in a career for 20, 30 years, it's really you have to give people a great mission where they feel like they're making an impact, but you also have to create that environment of psychological safety something we talk about a lot at SISA where people wake up in the morning, they're excited about what they do, they feel respected by their teammates, they feel valued and empowered by their leaders and, again, making an impact every day. And so that, I think, is the key to the magic of the type of environment where you can not only attract amazing talent, but you can retain that talent as well. And that's paying attention to the full package of both the physical health but, really importantly, the mental health.
Speaker 3:Well said, yeah, well said, amazing answer. Well, this has been a great episode, jen. Thank you so much for sharing everything you shared. I almost cried a couple of times. I've had goosebumps, mel, thank you for sharing as well. Is there any last thoughts or points you would like to state to our audience before I wrap it up?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, first of all, thank you for the opportunity. I guess I'd go back to your last podcast. I do think it is incredibly important for leaders to be willing to talk about the hard things, to be willing to be vulnerable. I mean, you can't really be an authentic leader unless you are allowing yourself to be vulnerable, and I think if you create the type of environment where people are more willing to be vulnerable, that will lead to an environment that, frankly, is a more successful one, and I think that, at the end of the day, because the stakes of this mission, the cybersecurity, are so high, what you need to do is to create an environment where people are as productive as possible, and so I welcome the example that you both are setting. I think it's really, really important, and I'm just appreciative of the time with you both.
Speaker 3:Thank you, Jen. Thank you, Jen. So much Again, Jen, Easterly of CISA. Don't forget to like and subscribe to our podcast on a variety of platforms and check out our website at wwwtechexecwellnesscom. Take care and thanks for tuning in. Take care.
