Tech Exec Wellness Podcast: Conversations to Reignite Your Soul

A Deep Dive into The Era's Tour Concert Experience

• Melissa Sanford

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What if a concert could redefine music, community, and empowerment? That happened with Taylor Swift's Eras Tour, a global phenomenon that turned each performance into a beacon of connection and storytelling. Deb Feder joins me on this episode as we share our journeys into the world of Ms. Swift—an adventure spurred by our children and solidified by the emotional depth of albums like "Evermore" and "Folklore." We dive into the magic that each concert atmosphere creates and Taylor's awe-inspiring stamina, making every show an unmissable event.

Our discussion takes you to the heart of a Taylor Swift concert, where the excitement starts long before the first note. Imagine being invited last minute by your daughter and the Herculean effort to stay spoiler-free, only to be swept away by the show's surprise songs and theatrical grandeur. With Taylor's incredible ability to handle the unexpected, she sets a high bar for live performances that elevate the concert experience.

We also shine a light on a beautiful grassroots movement inspired by the tour: the simple but powerful act of trading handmade bracelets among fans. This phenomenon extends the joy of the concert experience, fostering a sense of community that lingers long after the final encore. Alongside this, we celebrate female empowerment in the music industry, highlighting Taylor's strategic reclaiming of her music and the camaraderie she fosters with emerging female artists. As we speculate about her following albums, the excitement is tangible—Taylor's tours and music continue to resonate, leaving a lasting impact on all of us.

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Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome back to the Tech Exec Wellness Podcast, where we are going to talk about the Taylor Swift Heirs Tour. I'm your host, melissa, and today I have my friend Deb Fetter with me and we're going to kind of go through the whole. It was just wonderful, that's all I can say, but we're going to go through it. So this is not, it wasn't just a concert. It's a global sensation that captivated millions. It broke records. It turned stadiums into arenas of pure magic From the emotional setlist to the glittering outfits, to the economic ripple effects felt in every city. The tour was in it's redefining what it means to connect with an audience on a massive scale.

Speaker 1:

In this episode we're going to cover the highs, the highlights and everything in between. Whether you're a lifelong Swifty, a casual listener or just curious about this tour and how it became the event of a generation, stick around. So just a few quick stats here. She played 149 shows over 18 months, 54 cities, 21 countries and she averaged 532 hours total on stage, 22 days and four hours. Deb, I don't know about you, but I'm tired just looking at those stats.

Speaker 2:

I mean, they're really impressive, aren't they? Like I started doing some of the math earlier today and I was reading some of the interviews from the crew and like I was like no, that can't be. And then I was like, oh wow, that is right. So there, there's some pretty impressive numbers.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I think for anybody out there who you know we've talked about this on the show before but people that are getting back into working out or whatever and you know she took that hiatus for a while but she came back. She's an athlete. So people out there listening, there's no excuse for you to get out there, walk around, dance or whatever. Taylor Swift did it for three and a half hours. So, deb, when did you first discover Taylor Swift's music? Can you kind of take us back and tell us when you became a fan?

Speaker 2:

So I'm a fan because my daughter was a fan, right, so I actually was having this conversation. I mentioned to you that I've been doing a lot of studying up on the Aries tour over the last few days, even thinking through it. I became a fan through my daughter and I've, over time, learned more and more of the music, but I'm also like a 50-year-old mom who's a fan, so I don't know nearly as much as the teens today, which I think makes it amazing, because you can learn so much from those who are incredibly knowledgeable, like Swifties know their stuff?

Speaker 1:

Yes, we do. And for me I'm kind of like you, deb, I was like Taylor Swift, whatever, but I started listening to her over the pandemic forevermore and she's been around for a long time but I never really resonated with it. And then when those two albums came out, I mean Seven Cardigan, these were just really poetic and emotional songs. I mean, have you?

Speaker 2:

heard both of those albums, oh for sure. Like last night, I actually turned on the Folklore documentary and watched and, honestly, it kind of took me back to the pandemic and thinking through how that isolation felt, but also then watching how she connected, even with her team. Right, we used the music as this catalyst for community and for sharing what was important for her at the time, and it really is like it was a period of her music that I feel was very much poetic, right, and it is carried forward, I think, from there. But those albums really were magical in that moment and it was a very dark time for us, right.

Speaker 1:

No, absolutely. And she's the ultimate storyteller because there's certain lines in there, like in Seven, and you get yourself immersed into the character of the person she's singing about. And you know, in that song seven she's talking about herself as a little girl and her friend. She was hiding in the closet, you know she was afraid and Taylor's character was going to take her off to India. And she still thinks about her and in the line she says, I still have love for you. That just I get goosebumps thinking.

Speaker 2:

Well, I love and you know, I've watched interview after interview with her and read so much that and what I do love is, you know, as somebody who also writes and creates, I love that at the centerpiece of her work are the lyrics and the writing of the music and how important that is for her, and that the stories are authentic and they are real and they are. She can explain the. You know the genesis of every single song and every single piece of the lyric, and the lyrics are so intentional.

Speaker 1:

Yes. Yeah, have you heard of. Have you heard all of the songs in the TTPD album that came out? Oh, yes, what do you mean? Have I heard them? Well, let's, let's, let's go into that before we talk about the tour. But that was, that was one of my favorite albums. Any songs that stick out to you, that are your top three.

Speaker 2:

Okay, so here's what you have to know about me. Okay, this is like we're just going to fess up to this. I am a terrible and like it's funny, because my daughter was, like you're just going to have to own this mom. I'm terrible at like, naming songs, naming lyrics, like. I can talk albums, I can talk artists, I can tell you what I like in the moment. But if you ask me and it's been a thing for me forever what struck me about that album as a whole is that I wasn't expecting it to be what it was. I think I had a thought that it was going to be, I don't know, I think in the of like, where it came out, in the tour kind of, and where, like kind of, where the audience seemed to be right, like the fan base didn't. I didn't think it was going to be as long as it was and I didn't think it was going to be as deep and poetic as it was. How about that? I didn't expect it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think there's. You know, the song that sticks out to me the most is I Can Do it With A Broken Heart, because there's a line in there where she says I faked it till I make it and I did Bitch camera light smile and for me, when I first saw her I'm a Swifty Bev. I told you I love it.

Speaker 2:

I'm all in Keep going yeah.

Speaker 1:

So you know, when I saw her the first time around, it was in Arlington. It was their third show and you could tell in the beginning of the tour there was this emotional element going back to this album that she wrote, and when you listen to it it's somebody who's dragging themselves out, they're in a depression and they're like you know what? I'm going to fake it till I make it. And if you look now to the last concert in Vancouver I don't know about you, but I was watching the TikTok lives every weekend as well and she just really has her mojo back. I mean, she's dancing she's happy.

Speaker 2:

It's just a night and day difference between when she started and until this time. I mean night and day difference, right, I don't know. I think each of the pieces Okay. So let me ask you a question about this. So, when you think about the show and how she broke it down by the eras, like it was very intentionally, like by these album eras- right.

Speaker 2:

Do you and I've actually had a lot of debates about this over the last couple of days right? Is it a love of it that, like it's chronological, it's life storytelling, or did you want to see it as a blend of the music and how the music all works together? I think?

Speaker 1:

for me. I wanted to see era by era, so every you know, fearless when she first started out and then Midnight, I think, what she ended up doing. If I recall now they didn't go in chronological order because TTPD was before she did the Midnight's tour or the Midnight's.

Speaker 2:

Well, I should say, yeah, not chronological tour, but like by, like by, like the chunks of the eras were together.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I liked it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

It was her top 10 hits in each era and I think the, the costumes and the sets were just amazing. You know the the lover house. I just think it was not only a concert but also like a musical to me. I mean, what did you think about the concert and stuff when you went?

Speaker 2:

So I originally was not going. Okay, my daughter was going with friends and she came to me and said there's an extra ticket, come with us. And here's the thing, whether you're a Swifty or not, like when a teen daughter says come with us, like you like. You like literally, like it doesn't matter what they say, come to you're like, let me get dressed, I'm ready, right, sure. And so this was months in advance, and so I okay. So, and I have this thing about all concerts I do not study set lists, I want to be surprised, I want to be in the moment, I don't want to like, overanalyze what I'm about to go see. So I tried my very best which was almost impossible to not know as much about the show before going so I could just be in the show, which, I have to tell you, was seriously almost impossible.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think for us that saw the first three concerts, we didn't know what to expect, but I think as the tour continued on and you were watching the live streams, you knew what songs were going to come up. But I think she did a great job of mixing it up with surprise songs, doing some of those songs on the piano and you know she's the ultimate storyteller and I really like the beginning of it, where they come out in those like big purple, pink, type parachute things, yeah, like whatever those I mean, do they have a name?

Speaker 2:

I don't know, but it was pretty cool. Yes, they're really cool. Yeah, so, universally, I think that is everybody's favorite right Is that energy of the beginning?

Speaker 1:

Absolutely Okay. What would you have changed? Not a damn thing. Honestly, you know what? From the first song, deb, to Karma at the end, keep those. Everything else surprised me, but those I would not change at all.

Speaker 2:

Okay, so I do have to just own this right, like you, and you had posed a couple of questions to me, like just as we were bantering back and forth about this right and if I could hear a different song again. So I'm in Kansas City and we went on night two, so night one is when she released Speak Now, right, mm-hmm. So we went the next night and is that right? Do I have this right? I think my chronology is correct, but we went the night of Travis going and the whole thing with the bracelet and him wanting to have given it to her with his phone number on. Okay, so we did not get the karma's. Your boyfriend on the chiefs, boyfriend on the Chiefs, kansas City. I really would like to be able to hear and here's why it's not because of their relationship, but there is something about a hometown crowd and what they've both done for this community and there's a lot of people who are like we kind of feel like she needs to come back. We need one more time here.

Speaker 1:

Wow. Well, we'll have to wait and see if she comes back for another Heiress tour. I know we had another super fan on today and we were speculating. Do you think we're going to get another Heiress tour? I mean, I personally don't think so. I think, if you think about it, all the dancers, the band, I mean they spend a lot of time away from their families.

Speaker 2:

I don't think I okay. So I don't think I okay. So I don't think you're going to get another heiress tour, but I don't know that she can ever do like a simple tour again.

Speaker 1:

The bar's pretty high.

Speaker 2:

Okay.

Speaker 1:

So if you could pick any venue to see her in, where would it be? Ooh, that's tough. Arlington, where the Cowboys play. I don't like that venue and I can't believe I'm saying that, but I would. You know what? Yeah, right, I would say I would like a venue like the one in Miami. I thought that was cool. Soldier Field in Chicago, that was a great backdrop.

Speaker 2:

I can go with both of those. I'm going to tell you my dream and how I'd like to see where I'd like to see her. It will never happen, so let me offer up. It's not going to happen. Okay, I would love an acoustic, only no dancers. I would love an acoustic only no dancers, no glitter, no glitz, 200 people in a venue and just her and her music.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it sounds nice, but I think after going to the concert two or three times, the bar is really high. Maybe somebody will let her hear this and or she'll know about this and say maybe that's a great idea.

Speaker 2:

I don't think it's going to happen, but I do. It would be my dream because it's so different than what we saw.

Speaker 1:

You know there's on TikTok what they call the errors tour, so E-R-R-O-R-S and it really cracks me up. I don't know if you've seen these, but she swallowed a bug. Her hair was like standing up static electricity. But there's a lot of funny moments and I think what I like about Taylor Swift is she just kind of goes with the flow, she doesn't get upset, she doesn't stop her feet.

Speaker 2:

She's just like microphone's not working. Hell, she's real, right. I mean, here's the thing you cannot pull off a tour like this and try to be perfect, right? There's a lot of lessons on that for all of us that you can be at the very top of your game and have an incredible team that are valued and appreciated and stuff's going to go wrong. And you got a choice to panic, to get upset or roll with it. And she rolled with the most grace that you could ever imagine, and that's what you do.

Speaker 1:

No, absolutely. I keep saying this, but she has really raised the bar. You know, you and I've talked about this before I like concerts, I like going to them, but I don't I mean I'm going to have this high expectation now the next artist I see, and it's not going to be a big production like Taylor, but I was truly entertained for the three and a half hours.

Speaker 2:

I love Ed Sheeran and I actually saw Ed Sheeran in the same summer that I saw Taylor Swift, right and like, within like a month or two of each other, and what's so interesting is how different they were, and my family spent most of Ed Sheeran discussing the difference between the two experiences. Interesting, it was super interesting. Right, like he's, he's a solo performer, a big band and dancers. It is him on the stage talking about how he makes music and very like it's still in an you know same venue, right and but such a different experience and like having just like let people be them best selves. I think that, like, I just love seeing musicians show up and be their very best self in that moment.

Speaker 1:

No, that's a good point. Let me ask you this Was there a moment during the Heiress tour, or at that concert specifically, that you talked about afterwards? Was there a part of the concert, the performance, where you're like man, that was really, really cool. I like that whole set.

Speaker 2:

So I think the Speak Now ball gowns, I think that her surprise song dresses and it just being her being her right. I think again clearly, like I'm going for like a lot of it is the simple for me right. But, yes, the wow factor of the beginning and I've had this conversation with a lot of people there's something about the drama of the entrance and the launch of the show that is just. It's like breathtaking, like it really does like make everybody collectively just gasp.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I noticed that she took out the Archer because that was one of the songs that she played at the beginning and I love that song. But I think for me the most emotional part of it was Cardigan and Willow. The onstage with the orange, yeah, looked like glass balls, yeah. And you know, what I think is amazing is that they played in the rain, all different types of weather conditions, and nobody dropped one of those balls at all. I mean, they were just so professional. Kudos to the dancers.

Speaker 2:

So much like so much respect there, right, Because you understand that that would have slipped out of my hand in five seconds.

Speaker 1:

Oh yeah, I would have fell on my ass.

Speaker 2:

There's no doubt about it. I mean, like, for some, I like that's a different issue, right, these, I mean these dancers, and here's the thing she owns the fact, like Taylor owns the fact that she's not a dancer at heart. Right, it's honestly like part of you know, like the video of Shake it Off is just her dancing and being herself. Her dancers are incredible dancers and they really do support and work together in a way where it's like everybody's strengths are highlighted, and they are. They are fun and interactive, but so professional and what they are able to pull off. And those concerts that were in the heavy, heavy downpours, I just I mean I've watched video after video of them and I just I can't even imagine Absolutely.

Speaker 1:

And the real treat was seeing Florence Welch with Taylor singing Florida and the dancers around her. I mean, it was just so.

Speaker 2:

I mean again, it's just it took my breath away.

Speaker 1:

But Florence Welch, I mean she's just dynamic. And then Sabrina Carpenter and, of course, gracie Abrams. I've I've grown to like Gracie Abrams and Sabrina Carpenter and I think a lot of it was the exposure that they got with Taylor. Obviously, paramore big favorite and the Heim sisters Wish I would have saw them because I love the Heim sisters.

Speaker 2:

I've learned right to your point from their participation in the tour and their collaborative work with her for sure.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you know I'm a young at heart person. I don't have kids, I have dogs, but I'm really like into the younger artists. We've talked about Chaperone on the show but I really think the women have. Really, they just came out swinging this year and I think the tour and all of the exposure with the ERA's tour really catapulted a lot of these women that are talented. Right, They've got the extra lift, I think.

Speaker 2:

So there's something really special about successful women supporting other women right and there's something about letting it not be an ego or a grasping for attention or presence and really understanding that we are better when we're supporting each other. This was the embodiment. I've said. There's no lesson that you can learn in school, there's no legislation you can pass, there's no big sweeping initiative that can do as much for understanding what strong, successful women can look like, can do for our world, for our communities, as a business owner, and really understanding like their own value. Even with her quest it's not quite over yet of getting her music back right, she's like. She said, like look, this is my, this work is valuable, it is my work and I'm going to take it back and did it in a very strategic, smart way that has taught generations of women and girls like what's possible.

Speaker 1:

No, absolutely. And what I'm seeing with young women in the workplace is there's a camaraderie, and I've done well in my career. It's my turn to elevate women as they're coming up, and I think there was no better way to see it in person than these artists supporting one another. You go, girls. You keep up the good work. I'm going to be over here cheering you on. I'm just really proud. I'm really proud of these young women and, to your point, very, very assertive to take on that endeavor of getting her music back and rerecording it while she was on tour.

Speaker 2:

Right, I mean right. She didn't stop recording because she was on tour. She didn't stop working. Tour was one part of I mean a major part, right, but one part of her business operation for close to two years. What is, if you could have her collaborate with Sabrina Chapel Dua, who else? You want everybody in on it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I want Ilana Del Rey. I would love to see these women. I don't know about you. You have a daughter, right? I love the female empowerment. The divine feminine is alive and well, and I think we saw it this year.

Speaker 2:

I love it. You're like I want everybody on stage together. Hell, yeah, I mean all of them. Okay, now I want you to imagine that at my dream location.

Speaker 1:

Oh, I don't know Something about festivals, right, but yeah, no, I mean, intimate venues are really cool. Let me ask you this Bathroom breaks three and a half hour show. Did you stay in your seat the whole time or did you venture out to get swag or food or go to the bathroom?

Speaker 2:

I know that's a crazy question, but I love where this question is coming from. Okay, I'm very strategic about swag. When going to a concert I have a whole strategy of the beginning of the concert and when we go and where we go. We happened to luck out that where our seats were, we walked into a basically a swag like hall that wasn't crazy busy, so we were able. I stood in line and then, like the girls, went and scoped out if there was other, better swag other places, and we ended up staying where I was. So I'm a I'm a big believer in get the swag early and be done.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean, I don't know about you, but that sort of like seems to work best. I did have to use the restroom in three and a half hours, but I think. But I mean I did, okay, so you know how I say I don't pay attention to set lists. Yeah, there was enough chatter about like when to go to the restroom that I tried to be really smart about that. I also had some friends who were sitting in the section next to us, so I did a combo go say hello, use the restroom, get back, be expeditious about this.

Speaker 1:

We were lucky we were in a suite at the Arlington Stadium. That was cool. The bathroom was probably 10 feet away.

Speaker 2:

That was cool. Yeah, I mean, mine was not far, so again it was. It was very simple, but I think that there were, you know, you kind of had to like look around and be like, okay, when am I going to feel like I don't want to miss something?

Speaker 1:

Exactly, exactly.

Speaker 2:

I don't want to miss something.

Speaker 1:

When I was talking to Dr McClure earlier today, she told me that they were in line for three and a half hours at the New Orleans venue. I was texting her. I said why don't you just get it online? She's like I want the experience, even though all the stuff that you see at the concert is online. People wanted to stay in that line because they're talking about for swag.

Speaker 2:

Yes, yep, it's a long time.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, three, three and a half hours.

Speaker 2:

Okay, but I do understand the experience of it. Yep, yep, okay, can I talk about? Can I ask you a question? I want to talk about the friendship bracelet phenomenon.

Speaker 1:

Yes, I was going to get to that. I was going to get to that. Okay, go ahead, go ahead.

Speaker 2:

Tell me your thoughts on it.

Speaker 1:

What I wanted to ask and I think this is an important part of the conversation, talking about the atmosphere of the concert and that it's unlike any other and you're monetize the friendship bracelets.

Speaker 2:

That's right and at the end of the day, they might be like the swag that's most remembered, right, and it started with a line and a lyric, led to a movement which led to cities and venues really creating sets and all sorts of things outside of the venues with this friendship bracelet-like theme. This was not from a marketing company, this was not from somebody planting a social media strategy. That was really thought out in place and it was magical. It bonded a whole community. What about you?

Speaker 1:

What's your thought? No, absolutely, deb, absolutely. What I like about it is that it wasn't monetized, that it was grassroots, and you have little girls making them, giving them to Mama Swift. It was just so grassroots and so genuine, and that's, I think, what I take away from all of it is it was genuine, somebody handmade it. It wasn't commercialized, it was just hey, I'm going to give you this, let's trade bracelets. It was cool.

Speaker 2:

And also it allowed the experience of the concert to start months in advance. Yes, like, I have a picture of my daughter and our next door neighbor sitting out by the fire night after night making bracelets way in advance of the show. Right, and sometimes they talk about our music, sometimes they play the music, sometimes they wouldn't, sometimes they talk about life, sometimes the moms would join, sometimes we wouldn't, right, but it allowed the experience of the concert to have more life than one night. And, to your point, like you know, people wanted to trade them with other people. You know what we call let's call them the important people at the show. Right, like Mama Swift, they embraced it too. It became like it was a great equalizer. It wasn't something like you had to be in the specialty suite to get this kind of swag or to have access to this, like everybody was in on it with everybody.

Speaker 1:

The horses toward the end or not toward the end, I think off and on the security. The horses had their own Taylor Swift bracelet around their neck, which was cool.

Speaker 2:

I mean, which is just amazing, right, and I think that it's I don't know like. I think that that's part of actually the whole concert experience is that while you were there, you were in a safe, joyous community where women and girls could feel very safe without watching their backs for hours on end, which is just not something that we really necessarily always get to do, and it was an environment made for us A post from one of the dancers T time 23.

Speaker 1:

Nothing feels quite right on what to say or what to post. It's hard to find the words that encapsulates this feeling I have. It feels as if we have just won the Olympics, but after breaking through the finish line, a wave of emotions, exhaustion or stillness comes, and I'm not quite sure what to do with it. I auditioned for this job two years ago thinking I was signing up for just another job, a simple tour. I'm coming to the realization in these past few days of on and off, crying, laughing and sleeping, that this was much more than a simple tour. I don't know if I have the right words yet to say what these past two years have meant for me. I may be processing these feelings for a while, but I do know how much I love this family of 26 and how blessed I am to have danced, lived, worked alongside the most beautiful, intelligent, inspiring, genuine and talented artists of our time. To the tour that changed my life and many others. Long live the Heiress Tour. What do you think about that, deb?

Speaker 2:

You know, my wish for people is that you have an experience in your life, that you get a chance to work in whatever field you're in and doing whatever is your craft and your calling to work with people that light you up and support you and challenge and surprise you.

Speaker 1:

in exactly that it's interesting that you just said that, because I'm thinking people don't leave jobs. They leave people and, as you heard in her post, I thought it was just another tour and it was much more. I want to see that in the workplace. I want to see people being elevated and people being in a spot where they can be remembered and they could be around other people to make great things happen.

Speaker 2:

They cared about the fan experience. They cared about it from moment one, all the way through the very last moment of the very last show. There was no diminished experience, no matter wherever you saw it right Like they cared, and that level of care is something that we need to be reminded of.

Speaker 1:

It's kind of a weird vibe that there's no more shows and the people that I've talked to that have been following this tour. They said it just kind of feels like a light went out and she's still around. She's going to do amazing things, but, like you said earlier, with it being a safe space and a fun space. We don't have that right now and it's yeah.

Speaker 2:

I think our world is calling, I think, two things. One I think our world is calling for the light and the interesting and the calm right and the creative, and so it's unfortunately ending in a time where we're craving that right, this second Not that we have not been in the past, but I think more than maybe before, and at the same time, I think it's going to live on. I think that we're going to be talking about it for a really long time. I think that the light, I think the light and the magic and the music are so magnificent. I mean I can sit here and literally we can talk about one or two songs for the whole night you know the whole show today and break down every the lyrics, the set, just even like moment by moment, right, that just even like moment by moment, right, yeah, and I can come back in six months and I think we'll still be doing it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think we should revisit it. Where are we six months from now? She drops some more music or she's doing cool things in Kansas City. Deb, thank you for supporting the show. Thanks for coming last minute. I mean, I just adore you for that. We bonded over Taylor Swift now. How do you like that, you? We bonded over Taylor Swift now how do?

Speaker 2:

you like that. You know what? I'll tell you this. She was at our children's hospital today. I saw that she was there. So you know what? Yeah, you got to love somebody who closed something ginormous like this down and turned around and is already back in the community, of course. Okay, when do you think the final two albums are going to be released? You?

Speaker 1:

know what With her? She's a mastermind. We could get it next week. We could. I don't know. I don't know. What do you think? What are your thoughts?

Speaker 2:

I don't know, like I go back and forth on which one's going to be released first or whether they'll be released together. I get the idea of debut being last as making it full circle, but I do think that there's something about claim your name and then claim your reputation. Oh yeah, so I don't know, I'm excited Me too.

Speaker 1:

Well, thank you very much for being on the show and if you'd like to find our podcast, it's on platforms like Apple, spotify and iHeart Radio. So we hope you've enjoyed this episode reflecting back on Taylor Swift's Heiress Tour and, who knows, we might put some pictures up on the website. Friendship bracelets other experiences for all of us to continue to look at throughout the years. So, thank you very much, deb, thank you listeners and everybody. Have a great holiday.

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Melissa Sanford

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Lisa Sanford

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