Beyond Defense: The Creative Future of AI Security and Consciousness

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Transcript

Welcome and Introducing Craig Johnson

Speaker 1 0:00

Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Tech Exec Wellness Podcast . It's Melissa . Today we have Craig Johnson . He's the founder and managing partner of Root5 Consulting , which is a strategic executive search firm that specializes in the cybersecurity ecosystem . Craig has over 14 years of global experience in cybersecurity leadership recruitment and has successfully placed over 250 candidates into various roles across the USA . Placed over 250 candidates into various roles across the USA EMEA , latam and APAC Consultants for clients ranging from startups to Fortune 500 companies . So , craig , before we get started , I ask this of all of my guests , so hopefully you've prepared for this moment . But what is your favorite music genre and can you share a memorable concert experience with us that we can share with our listeners ?

Speaker 2 0:45

Absolutely we will . Firstly , thanks for having me on , melissa . It's really appreciated , you know . I know we spoke a few times over the years , so you know I really appreciate the invite . So yeah , favorite music genre this is a hard one for me because I've got like such a broad range of music interests , like everything from soul to country to rock and roll to rap , like I literally listen to all sorts of stuff , but I would have to say soul , soul music , oh nice , yeah , that's probably the one that I kind of come back to most . Yeah , favorite memorable concert experience I would say it's kind of not really a concert experience , it kind of is . But a long time ago I used to have a job where I worked on tour with different bands and it was kind of like a job when I was a kid and I used to set up riders for dressing rooms . So I would kind of go in and I'd get this list of like obscure , weird things that these bands would want in their dressing rooms .

Speaker 2 1:44

And I kind of go in and I'd get this list of like obscure , weird things that these bands would want in their dressing rooms and I kind of have to run around the city and try to get all this stuff together and I went on tour with Al Green and really and like he was like he's a really interesting guy , like he's really out there and and on the the final night of the tour he did the Apollo in London , which is , you is quite a cool venue , and my boss at the time she was like look , I know you're a fan , take the night off . You can go and sit on the side of the stage and watch the show . So I literally sat right on the side of the stage and watched a whole Al Green performance , which was just unbelievable . I was like 20 meters from it .

Speaker 1 2:25

That was probably the most memorable . I'm loving all of these concert experiences where people are up close and personal . That's awesome yeah , yeah , that's great any uh concerts upcoming , or you just kind of hanging out for the summer ? What you got going on nothing in the pipeline .

Speaker 2 2:39

You know there's a big um , there's a big reunion happening in the UK at the moment . Oasis have got back together .

Speaker 1 2:46

I've heard that .

Speaker 2 2:48

Yeah , and I was a massive , massive Oasis fan back in the day , Like you know . I've been to see them dozens of times and you know they were like my band . And I've not got a ticket for this reunion , and I don't know why , but there's some things telling me that , no , I'm just going to stick with the memories . I don't know why , but there's some things telling me that , no , I'm just going to stick with the memories . I don't want to do it over again , Because I know there's something about when old bands get back together . It's a bit like , you know , I don't know like when you see Mick Jagger running around the stage in like his 70s , it's like you know , I don't know if that's cool anymore , but yeah , so I don't have anything planned , but I feel like I probably should have gone to the Oasis gigs . I don't know , Maybe I'll regret it .

Speaker 1 3:24

Okay , for our listeners out there , this is going to be one heck of a podcast , because we're not only talking about cyber and AI , but we're talking about some of the sci-fi . And I'm only saying this because you brought up Mick Jagger , but it's like you read my mind . I saw the Tattoo you tour back in 1981 . I was a little kid and I just thought the same . I'm like I'm not going to go see them . You know , like 40 or 30 years later , whatever the heck the math is there , but I don't want to go see them when I saw them in their prime , because that was a prime year for them in the 80s .

Speaker 2 3:55

Yeah , I agree , and at the time when I used to go and watch Oasis , I was 16 , 17 , 18 , whatever . You know I was fighting to get to the front and you know I didn't mind . If I'm getting beer thrown on me and like you're in the moment , like if I went now at 40 with , you know , married and two kids , like I'm standing at the back , I'm probably getting annoyed that I can't get to the toilet in time and it's like what am I doing here ?

Speaker 1 4:27

Like they've changed . I've changed . It's like , yeah , that's our period's gone now . I think , yeah , that was definitely me at the Fleetwood Mac concert in Chicago . I was near the bathroom and made sure I had an early exit so I could get out of there before bed time .

Speaker 2 4:34

Exactly exactly .

Speaker 1 4:36

Before we get into the really cool stuff , I just want to the threat landscape has really evolved over the past few years , I know , even when I was doing IR at Prol . But what frontier are we currently standing on , with AI and everything else ? That's kind of seeping into the ecosystem ? What are your thoughts on that ?

Speaker 2 4:53

Yeah , I think the threat landscape , I mean it just never goes away . It just gets bigger , right , right , um . And I think one thing that I've noticed in the last five years is probably like just general awareness amongst you know , the everyday people . You know , whether it's like my parents or my brother , who have like nothing to do with the industry at all , they now kind of know what it is and they're they're almost a little bit more

The Evolving Cyber Threat Landscape

Speaker 2 5:19

conscious of of being hit with stuff now , which I think is good . So I I think the awareness is definitely growing , but I think that one of the biggest , I guess , issues or if we think about the frontier , I think it's a deep fake thing that , for me , is the frontier of where we're at now .

Speaker 2 5:37

I think that's the thing that is going to cause the biggest problems , in my opinion , because I don't think there's anything out there that's really tackling it . I don't think there's anything out there that's really tackling it . You know , I don't , I don't think there's any products that are being able to , you know , accurately detect deep fakes , or certainly not quick enough for them to do the damage that they do . I don't think it's only going to get better , like google vo3 or whatever it's called . I mean it's , it's just ridiculous , like it just looks like real life . So that for me , is is the frontier of cyber right now . That's where I think the challenges are that need to be solved .

Speaker 1 6:09

Do you feel like AI can be used more for good , like alleviating or mitigating those threats and the cyber defense ecosystem , or do you think that we're lagging behind and , like you just said , with Google it's so realistic ? What are your thoughts on that ?

Speaker 2 6:23

Yeah , I suppose AI is . You know , both sides are taking advantage of AI . From my perspective , obviously everybody is now looking to kind of implement it into their workflows and threat actors are using it for their advantage as well . I think the thing that worries me a little bit is , you know , if you look at like the defense side so you know corporates and you know cyber companies who are trying to defend against attacks I just get a sense that a lot of the discussions around ai is about . You know , how do we implement ai into our processes and and how do we do it to make us more efficient , more effective , more quicker to respond to things , which is great . You know , I think ai is going to be really good for that type of stuff .

Speaker 2 7:04

But I think on on the threat actor side , it's more around the creativity that they can get out of ai . That's a bit more dangerous , you know . So it's almost like this strategic play against tactical . Like . I think on the defense side there's a lot of tactical focus around how we can get quicker and better , but the attacker side is more like it's more strategic . It's like wow , we can get really creative with this stuff now , and I think so it's almost like there's two different use cases playing out . Um , that kind of worries me a little bit because I think the creative side may may win more often in the coming years than in the defensive side . So yeah , that's kind of my thoughts on that now .

Speaker 1 7:41

Now the cool stuff . You and I have talked offline about this and I had put together a thought piece on consciousness creation , using consciousness to manifest things . I know that you're a fan of sci-fi , do you think ? With Blade Runner , philip K Dick wrote a lot of what seems to be coming to fruition now , of what seems to be coming to fruition now . And your point about Google . Do you see some similarities between that and the movie Blade Runner , where there's the identity , reality and moral ambiguity about where these beings or consciousness will have rights ? Have you thought about that and what that looks like ?

Speaker 2 8:19

Yeah , I mean , it's really philosophical that question around will AI have rights , Should it have rights ?

Speaker 2 8:31

And it does kind of come back to the broader question of consciousness

AI: Defense Tactics vs. Creative Threats

Speaker 2 8:36

and where consciousness evolves from , and what exactly is consciousness ? I think it depends on what you think about that before you can kind of make a judgment on whether ai should have rights , um , because I think if you think that consciousness is , is kind of local to the brain , um , then it's kind of difficult to say that ai should have rights because you know that it's never going to be conscious . Right , if consciousness is something that is that manifests in the brain . But I don't believe that and I think you know a it's never going to be conscious , right , if consciousness is something that is manifesting in the brain . But I don't believe that , and I think you know a lot of there's a lot of interesting theories to suggest that's not the case , that consciousness is kind of external and it's kind of like the precursor to everything . And if that is the case , then you know AI is just another creation of consciousness , like we are right , so another creation of consciousness like we are right .

Speaker 2 9:24

So in that sense then , I suppose it does . You know , there is some kind of innate no innate value in there and I suppose we , in that way , maybe it should have rights . You know , and it's a bit like when you , when you look at life in general and and you know , is a human life more valuable than than a bird's life ? And you know people , most people , will probably say yeah , of course it is . But then you know , how do you know for sure , like because you don't really know who's assigning value to it in a way right . So it kind of comes down to that for me a little bit . It's like you know what is consciousness , first and foremost ? If it's not local , which I don't think it is , then we're all a product of it .

Speaker 2 10:03

So therefore , maybe it should have rights . But I just , it's a really tough one . And also , like , at what point do we decide that Like ? Does it just naturally occur ? Or all that Like does it just naturally occur or all of a sudden , one day ? Is it kind of this big sit down and go right , you know we got to start taking care of these guys better because they got feelings .

Speaker 1 10:23

It's a funny one . Let's go back and talk about some of the pop culture themes like Minority Report , matrix , blade Runner . Choose the movie and we'll deep dive into that . Is there one of those films in particular , or maybe all of them , where you're like , wow , this is really cool and I can see this happening and what does it really mean ?

Speaker 2 10:40

yeah , so like in um , in the sense of like sci-fi kind of becoming reality , yeah well , I mean , I I think we kind of see that everywhere .

Speaker 2 10:49

You know , I think minority report is an interesting one because you know , that whole predictive , policing , thought crime , pre-crime type stuff , scary uh , it is kind of scary and but I I've actually kind of got a bit quite deep into this at the moment because I'm involved in a , in a startup that is kind of in and around this space and um , you know the reality of , you know of , of you know the digital world , right is that you know a lot of , um , a lot of things that we see play out in the real world , whether it's like school shootings or whether it's , you know , terrorist attacks . A lot of it is planned online and particularly with , like long wall factors . You know the kind of narcissistic types . They're very vocal and very open online before they do what they do . You know , like most of these attacks can be tracked , because these people are saying in many cases , exactly what they're going to do , you know , and they're researching how to do it and they're planning it and they're buying the equipment and you know , and then they go and do something awful right , and there's a load of lives lost . So do I think we should be monitoring for that and looking for that type of stuff online , absolutely . You know apparent encrypted spaces to kind of find these people .

Speaker 2 12:02

Then , yeah , like we , I think we totally should , because you know , there's people out there who , who , who are going to do bad things , and if we can

Consciousness and Technology Philosophy

Speaker 2 12:08

find them before they do it , then we should be looking for it .

Speaker 2 12:10

But then on the other side of the fence , like I'm , you know , I'm like a private guy , I'm a free speech guy , like I believe that , you know , we should be able to criticize stuff and we should be able to have opinions on things .

Speaker 2 12:20

But , you know , having an opinion and putting your opinion out there is kind of different too , and I think we should be open to everything being looked at and everything being examined . But I also think we need to be , you know , if we're , if we're going to be out there and we're going to be saying stuff and we're going to be which looks like we may be about to harm people , then we should be expecting a knock on the door . In my opinion , yeah , that's kind of that's where I think the minority reporting is playing out in real life and I think people are kind of a bit worried about it and they think , oh , you know , I don't want to be living in some orwellian , 1984 style state , but we've also got to be mindful that there is bad actors out there , and a lot of this stuff can be tracked through the type of technologies that people are often worried about .

Speaker 1 13:03

Yeah , it's a thin line because , like what you're saying , predictable behavioral models where can they enforce good ? Where can they save lives ? Where can they not disrupt ? With all these wonderful technologies , we're working globally seamlessly . I don't really see that big of an issue with predictable behavioral models that are maybe tapping into those threat actors that are looking to do harm on a mass scale . So I do see that and I also agree with you . You want to be able to have your thought leadership out there with good intentional , but something that's not damaging or discouraging .

Speaker 2 13:40

But wow , have we come a long way you know , there's been examples of people getting arrested over here for just ridiculous things in my in my opinion , right um online posts . But you know , I think people are quick to jump on the bomb wagon to say oh , you know , the uk is doomed and you know you can't post anything online and blah , blah , blah and you're going to get arrested . I don't think we're quite there yet , but I also don't think that they've quite figured out what is a threat online and what is it like it's like , come on , you know , like you're allowed to voice your opinion sure but I think you know , if he was planning on a you know , on some violence against people , then you know , of course he needs to be intercepted .

Speaker 2 14:23

So I I think we need to get the balance right . You know , we need to understand actually what does behavioral . You know , what do these behavioral precursors look like and how do we sort of build models around detecting them , whilst enabling people to voice their opinions , and , you know , as long as they're not going too far and planning anything , anything bad .

Speaker 1 14:44

I like what you said there , because that's exactly the word that we should be using is balance . Ai has a lot of great things wearables , fitness apps . I use that Zing app and it's great , but then again you also have . Are we policing people ? Are we creating a culture where creativity is stifled ? I think that's the perfect word is we've got to have a governance around balance and where people can use this for good , because I think there's more opportunities to use it for good than bad . What do you think about that ?

Speaker 2 15:15

A hundred percent . A hundred percent . But I think it comes down to what are we really doing it for ? You know , I see the clip . The other day it was the Google CEO , I forget his name , or was it the Microsoft one ? I think it was a Microsoft guy and he was talking about . You know how to measure the effectiveness of AI , and I think you know you were saying something about .

Speaker 2 15:35

You know , we need to look at this from kind of older school metrics , right , like you know , is the economy growing ? Are is unemployment decreasing ? Is poverty decreasing ? You know , like that's how we should look at it , like in a really broad sense of is this making the world better , not like kind of obsessing over you know ? You know , have we improved this process by this ? Or you know what ? If I look at it from a bigger picture perspective and you know so , I I think that's kind of where we should be going with it .

Speaker 2 16:02

Um , and I think there's a really , really big opportunity in the world right now to kind of clear up the chaos with ai , and and I mean that in the sense that you know there is so much noise in the world , there is so many , many things that kind of take away your attention and you know many people don't have time to kind of stop , take some time out of their day , meditate , go for a walk , really kind of switch off and just kind of sit with your own thoughts . People just don't have the time to do that anymore because there's just so much chaos in everybody's lives and I think that's where true creativity comes from . I think creativity comes from connecting with you know , the greater consciousness or you know whatever it might be like . You hear so many famous inventors or musicians over the years and they talk about their greatest inspiration .

Speaker 2 16:49

Their greatest idea is just coming to them yes you know , and so you know where is it coming from ? It's not coming from an ai . Oh , it's not coming from an AI . It's coming from you connecting . I think if AI is implemented effectively so that we ultimately get more free time , then it can be really beneficial for creativity , because it will allow us to be more creative rather than taking away creativity from us . It's kind of like that tactical element . It's like if we implement AI at a tactical level in our lives to kind of do all of the monotonous , boring stuff that we don't want to be doing , then it can free up our time to think and connect , and that's where I think creativity comes from .

Speaker 1 17:27

I agree with that . Now I'll just say I'll just put this out there as well I think it takes discipline too . You have to know when to walk away from online usage , whether that be TikTok , Facebook or LinkedIn I mean , anybody can write anything , Anybody can say anything , but you really want to be out there talking to people face to face . You want to be out there experiencing , touching the grass , being in nature . As you mentioned , a lot of inspiration comes from when the mind is quiet .

Speaker 2 17:54

Yeah , 100% .

Speaker 1 17:56

Okay , so we're going to pivot here for a minute . The matrix . One of the things that I've taken away from it is you are more powerful than we've been led to believe . We grew up in a world where systems have shaped our perception , and I think , in my opinion , the freedom comes from questioning the narrative . Have you taken the red or blue pill ?

Speaker 2 18:17

Craig , you know , I mean I love the Matrix , I mean I think it's a great movie and I think it is one of those . So there's a quote . I forget the name of the guy , the philosopher . I think he might have been a Canadian philosopher , marshall McLuhan . I think he died a long time ago , but he has a very famous quote , which is humans are the sex organs of the machine world .

Speaker 2 18:39

And he said this a long time ago , like he said it a long time ago , before the Matrix was ever written , I believe . And so the Matrix is kind of that , isn't it ? It's this virtual reality that we're kind of all living in and there's kind of science around this type of thing now as well . To suggest that , you know , the likelihood of us being living in base reality is like really low , almost minimal , which is pretty scary .

Speaker 2 19:06

But if you look at the trajectory of where we're going now , like if you look at where we are now and AI and robotics and automation and all you know the neurotech industry , like Neuralink , and you know the whole kind of neuromodulation space , like we're kind of heading towards there , you know we are kind of obsessed with creating , you know , machines that are as close to us as possible , like you know whether we're creating AIs to do what we do and then we're creating robots to move , like we move , and then we're trying to kind of connect the two together . So you know there's these , you know human brain , you know these brain interfaces now , and you think , well , you know we're kind of moving towards that direction , as much as that sounds crazy , that you know we're possibly living in a matrix now . Well , you know , even if that's not true , we're certainly working towards it , and nobody can deny that .

Speaker 1 19:59

Yeah , absolutely . I know my takeaway from it and I was again . I was very young when I saw it . I didn't know that the red pill represented truth and the blue pill is ignorance , not being aware of what's really truly going on . And for me , it really looking back on it years ago when I saw it . It really makes sense to me . Are we creating our lives ? Are we just ignorant to the fact that , hey , I'm here , everything that I have learned on my life is true . And that's where I think , with things like the gateway experience , are we more than our physical bodies ? Absolutely we are . And we're seeing the Moreau Institute and people that have taken those classes tapping into consciousness , expanding their awareness and going there . Even though people have created these fantastical works of art , I think it really goes down to they were doing the gateway experience by not even knowing they were doing the gateway experience .

Speaker 2 20:48

Yeah , 100% , I love all that stuff . The whole gateway , yeah , I'm trying to get a hold of the CDs . I'm sure they're kind of like in a digital version now . But you know the whole is it like five steps to the whole thing ? You know the gateway experience . I'm trying to get a hold of that because , yeah , I'd love to kind of dive more into it , but I'm aware of it . You know , I'm aware of the Monroe Institute and some of the people that have been involved in that , like Joe Nonigo and I think that's his name , nonigo maybe the Stargate guy . But yeah , I totally believe all that stuff , me too . I think that that's kind of where we should be spending more time and that's where we don't spend enough time now . That's kind of like the biggest problem , because we're so consumed by screens and devices when really all the answers are kind of elsewhere .

Speaker 1 21:41

I 100% agree with that , and I think frequency is based around that as well . Right , If you're overwhelmed , you're over consuming media , whatever it is , then your frequency is probably going to be lowered , because all that's going around now is probably not so good

Predictive Models and Digital Privacy

Speaker 1 21:55

things . I think if you take that opportunity to go deep within and explore and this is what they're saying you can create your reality through your thoughts . I always wake up with intent , Craig , like I'm going to have a great day . Am I going to co-create with the creator today ? What about you ? Do you believe in that at all , that you can create your reality ?

Speaker 2 22:13

I do , you know . I think when you strip it down , it's kind of it's not as out there as it might sound . When you know , when you say it like that Because in reality everything starts with a thought Everything , you know , everything you look like , you know , you look around in the room you're in now and all of the things that you can see in that room that have been made started with a thought . So , you know , even from that rudimental sense , then yeah , we can create our environment . Then I think you know going beyond that and actually being really , you know , really being able to kind of affect the outcome of your life . I absolutely think you can do that , you know .

Speaker 2 22:48

I think it's all about mindset . It's all about , like you say , frequencies , it's being in the right headspace . If I have a bad morning , you know frequencies , it's being in the right headspace . If I have a bad morning or a bad start to the day , you can pretty much guarantee that it's not going to turn around . It's not going to turn around unless I'm like really proactively , take myself out of it , dust myself down , take a couple of hours out , go for a run , go for a walk , meditate , whatever , switch up and then come back and then I've got a chance .

Speaker 2 23:19

But it's if you , you know if you're in the wrong mindset or you're in the wrong frequency , you just attract that stuff like you really do . You know , when people say , oh , it happens in threes , you know what . You know , some of the battle happened to you and then somebody else or somebody else people say , oh , it happens in threes , and the reason why it kind of accumulates , that is because you're in that negative mindset , you're on that negative wavelength and and you're just going to attract more of that so you can get yourself in a positive place . Yeah , exactly yeah yeah yeah , 100% .

Speaker 2 23:41

So I'm a big believer in that , for sure .

Speaker 1 23:43

The other thing that I think of when you're talking and I know you and I are passionate about this , but it's all in exactly that Like if you think that the economy is bad , well , I mean , there's evidence , right . But again , I do believe there's a way , there's a will that it won't affect you . So they call it being Delulu , but sometimes I think you know you just made an evidential point which is in threes . That person that says that , or the collective hive , is manifesting that threes , it always comes in three . Well , guess what ? We all are believing in that and , stupidly , we're creating that . If we could get the hive mind to just say hey , you know what ? We got to look out for one another . We got to live great . We got to live in this world where there's peace . I really think we can bring that about . And again , it goes back to that it comes in threes . Back to that it comes in threes . How about it comes in threes of great ?

Speaker 2 24:35

things instead of death . Yeah , definitely . I think one of the issues that most people have is people are kind of a little bit more drawn to death . Negative news maybe I don't know , or I don't know if that's a thing or or that's something we just get told . I don't know because I don't feel like that , I try to avoid it . To be honest with you , like I don't watch , I don't watch the news on tv , like I won't , I just I can't . Like if somebody wants to talk a load of negative stuff or gossip or you know , I just I'm , you know , repulsed by it , like I just want to get away from it , like I don't , that's just not my thing .

Speaker 2 25:15

But then again , I do sometimes end up in rabbit holes around . You know things that's going on in the world , right , like whether it's you know the current situation in Israel , in Iran . You know because I try to keep on top of geopolitics and what's going on in the world , because I'm interested in it but also relevant to cyber . So I think you've got to keep on top of it and we're all so misinformed when it comes to this type of stuff anyway Nobody knows the true what's going on , but I think you've got to try and make sense of stuff .

Speaker 2 25:49

So sometimes recently I've spent days on X , you know Twitter , whatever you want to call it . You know digging deep into different people's perspectives on stuff and reading about historical events and how this government did that and that government did this , and this guy did that and that girl did this , and all really bad stuff , right and it and , and you know , sometimes I kind of got to break those cycles and say , do you know what ? Just this doesn't matter , this is all stuff that you don't need to be concerned with and you just need to focus on on yourself . So I I do struggle with that sometimes , I've got to admit , like the balance between staying positive , staying focused , staying within myself and my family and my own life , against keeping on top of all the bullshit going on in the world and trying to kind of have an opinion . Yeah , I struggle with that , to be honest .

Speaker 1 26:39

You know what I think for me , meditation and doing the gateway experience , and there's 36 sessions , by the way .

Speaker 2 26:45

Is it 36 ?

Speaker 1 26:46

Wow , yeah , it's really crazy , but I will tell you this has enriched my life beyond anything I've ever known , because I used to have X Twitter I don't know what they're calling it these days , but I deleted it . I made a decision when I was meditating . I was getting all these wonderful , creative ideas and I was seeing that there was much more to life than just overconsumption of news , because years ago I'm guilty of it wash , rinse , repeat same thing every day . And once I tapped into my consciousness and started meditating , the world opened up for me in ways I can't even explain . I'm a believer in this stuff . I know it might sound woo to people , but it really works . It's made me a better person .

Speaker 2 27:28

Yeah , 100% . I've never known anybody say it hasn't worked for them . I know plenty of people who who give up on it . They don't give it enough time or they're not supported by the people around them as well , because you know it is kind of people will laugh and joke about it . You know it's like oh , you know what are you doing meditating ? Oh you know what ? Are you a hippie ?

Speaker 2 27:48

you know , like like it's that type of , that type of um . You know a lot of people think like that and you know if you let that get to you then you'll never get anywhere with it . So I think you know you need some people around you who are aware and you know are into it as well , and my wife is and you know even even my kids you know will do it now they'll come , put their headphones on and they'll go and what they'll go and listen to , like , you know , like a sleep story , but it's like a meditative type thing and you know stuff like that . So yeah , I do try and do it as much as possible . You know sometimes it can be quite challenging , but you know I don't want to make excuses because I hear a million people making excuses all the time , but it's as important as physical exercise and nutrition . You know it's just for some reason it's still got a bit of a stigma . It's just for some reason it's still got a bit of a stigma .

Speaker 1 28:30

Aside from meditating , you mentioned running . What are you doing to ensure your own well-being ?

Speaker 2 28:35

Yeah , I mean , I do a lot of exercise . Up until two weeks ago when I tore the meniscus ligament in my knee playing paddle yeah , it hurts , but I'm pretty active . You know . I play a variety of different sports , go to the lift less weight , you know four or five times a week . So I , I do a lot of stuff that requires no

Meditation and Consciousness Exploration

Speaker 2 28:57

thought . You know , like , if I go to the gym , I I don't , I don't put headphones in , you know , I don't take my phone in there , like it's just me and my thoughts telling me to stop doing what you're doing and kind of fighting against it . So like , if I , you know I I'll go running , I don't take , don't listen to music , don't listen to podcasts . It's just me , because I , I just feel like it's cheating otherwise . So that's kind of how I , how I get away . You know I I just take myself away , do some hard exercise , um , and and sort of force myself into the zone , um , you know , that's kind of my thing .

Speaker 1 29:32

I can relate to that . I started using free weights . I'm on week 50 now , but you're right , I might have music playing in the background , but I'm not listening to it because I'm focusing on breathing and my strength is improving , so I can't think about anything else and I really think that's what it takes . To be present is like you said , you don't have any distractions around you , it's just you and you're running . It's you running , it's lifting weights , you're just you're there . You have to be there .

Speaker 2 29:59

Yeah , yeah , absolutely , and I've been playing a lot of paddle .

Speaker 1 30:03

What is that ?

Speaker 2 30:04

It's like a mix of it's a cross of tennis and squash , so it's like a . It's like a . It looks like a tennis court , but it's a smaller court , um , and it's like surrounded by perspex , um , and you play in doubles and you can hit the ball off the back of the court , off the sides . You know the the rackets are slightly different like a smaller version of a tennis racket with no strings , just like a , like a paddle , and it's a really really good game and it's like what I think it's like the fastest growing game in the UK at the moment , like it's really really popular . So I've been playing quite a lot of that and that's like a really intense game , really fast paced , really intense . We'll play for like an hour and a half and you can't think about anything else while you're doing it . You know you're just locked into the game .

Speaker 1 30:46

And , yeah , I like that again . Paddle , so it's P-A-D-E-L All right , I'm going to have to . That sounds like a lot of fun . I mean , I like tennis , I like being focused and it's fast movies . I want to check that out , see if we have that here in the States .

Speaker 2 30:59

Yeah , I'm sure you will , Because you guys , you guys have pickleball right .

Speaker 1 31:02

Yes , yeah .

Speaker 2 31:03

So it's a little bit like that . Also , you'll definitely have it , but it's much easier than tennis . I played quite a lot of tennis at school and tennis is quite a hard game . The court is big , it is . No , it's a tough game . Paddle is much easier . You can pick it up really quick . You'll have good rallies straight away . It's a good game .

Speaker 1 31:23

When you were growing up , was there any sci-fi movie or book that felt like a warning instead of entertainment , like looking back on your life and you read that going my goodness , this is happening of course .

Speaker 2 31:34

Yeah , I mean , I think I think the matrix was a big one for me . You know that that was one that kind of really made me think about reality in general . You know that that was a big one . There's another one as well I I forget the name of it , it's with matthew mcconaughey , and this wasn't really when I was a kid , this was quite , quite recent .

Speaker 1 31:51

But the interstellar oh yeah , that's a great one I love that one like that .

Speaker 2 31:55

That . That one for me is is really , really interesting because it's so grounded in science that we we understand . You know , it's just like the physically being able to kind of do what they do in that movie is maybe a little off , but theoretically we kind of understand it and it makes sense , which I think is like really trippy , you know , when you , when you watch that movie and you see it play out and you realize that actually theoretically it's possible , that's pretty Do you ever look back going , I thought we'd be further along .

Speaker 1 32:26

I'm talking like Jetsons , stuff like that . That seemed so far out there and here we are and we don't have any flying cars or anything . Do you ever look back on ? We should be further along than we are .

Speaker 2 32:37

Yeah , maybe , maybe . I mean , you know , sometimes people talk about you know how crazy it is to live now and you know how different it is when , from from now until when , we , you know , since we were kids , kids , right , so , I was born in the 80s , um , but I'm I'm old enough to remember like no internet and no mobile phones and I things are different , for sure , but it's digitally different . Well , that's , that's the thing it's like . We have a phone , we all have computers . Computers are much better than they've ever been .

Speaker 2 33:10

But you know , when I look , I think for me , when things are like , markably different , it will be when transport looks very different . You know the type of houses we look in , we live in , look very , very different . You know , I'm looking out now and you know I'm looking around my street and it probably hasn't changed much in the last 50 years in reality . So it doesn't feel like that to me . And I don't know whether it doesn't feel like that because you've lived through it and it's just gradual changes , but I don't know . I think transport is a big one for me , like I still see people sitting in their cars for three or four hours a day in traffic and I'm like have we advanced that much ? Really clearly ? Not , you know , because nobody's made that better .

Speaker 2 33:48

Um , and yeah , like cars , I mean the driverless car thing is interesting , you know , because that's a thing now , you know which . And I look at my two kids at eight and five and you know , somebody said to me recently do you think they'll ever need to learn how to drive a car ? And I'd never thought about that and I don't . The answer is I don't know , maybe they'll , maybe they'll only learn to drive a car because they'll want to use it on a track .

Speaker 2 34:18

You know , or you know , because the reality of it is that driverless vehicles are probably safer than humans . So if that is the case , then eventually it will be regulated that people aren't allowed to drive cars on public roads . It has to be driverless , and if you want to drive a car you've got to go on a racetrack , and so then people just won't pass their license , you know . So I think things like that , when we start seeing , you know , logistics around us change and become more futuristic , I think that's when I will feel like , right , we've arrived . But until then , I don't know , I I haven't really felt it .

Speaker 1 34:48

Yeah , I'm with you . Well , one last question for you . We have a lot of listeners that are pursuing cyber . What advice would you give someone as far as what domain or how they should go about exploring what they want to do in cyber ? What advice would you give ?

Speaker 2 35:12

Yeah , I think it's a good question because it's . You know , the advice I'd give today is maybe the complete wrong advice for how things will play out in the next 10 to 15 years . So it's a tricky one to kind of advise somebody on because of the uncertainty of how this whole AI thing is going to play out . But I think people

Personal Wellness and Work-Life Balance

Speaker 2 35:24

should really try and get a fundamental understanding of the bigger picture of cybersecurity and what it actually is , the bigger picture of cybersecurity and you know what , what it actually is , you know the geopolitical elements to it and the crime elements to it , and you know the fact that there is there's a perpetrator , there's a victim , there's . You know you've got to understand the bigger picture and don't get too bogged down on niche technical skills , whether it's like pen testing or becoming a SOC analyst or whatever , which are all good things for sure but I think a lot of people might go into it not understanding what it is .

Speaker 2 35:56

And it's a big , global , complex criminal activity , you know , which manifests in many different ways , sure , so I think people should understand it from a broader perspective and then figure out what they really want to do and how it aligns with their personality . Um , because you know if you want to be , um , want to be a digital forensics expert , you know great , but you better be prepared to be sitting in front of a computer for hours on end looking through lines of code and you know , doing like root cause analysis and all that type of stuff like it's it's a tough job , that requires incredible amounts of concentration and all that type of stuff Like it's a tough job . That requires incredible amounts of concentration and a certain type of mind . And if you're like an extrovert and you're a people person , then you know that's the wrong place for you .

Speaker 2 36:42

So I think , you know people have got to understand themselves . First They've got to understand what the industry is all about and then they've got to understand who they are and what they're going to enjoy doing , because there's a lot of really interesting stuff that people wouldn't associate with cyber security . But but but is actually right in there . You know whether it's . You know stuff like . You know the whole PR like communications side of it which is kind of growing now . You know communications departments now need to understand cyber and how to communicate breaches to their customers , to the public , to shareholders . Um , you know that that's a whole space within itself , like , like legal . For example , you know being a cyber lawyer . You know that that's that's interesting . You know that that's a whole field .

Speaker 2 37:30

So it's more than just being a hacker or being a SOC analyst . You know there's a whole industry . Now it's very much an industry . It's not a function . People think it's a function within an organization . It's like , oh , I'm a cybersecurity person . It's really not . It's very unique in the sense that it's an industry , you know , which contains products , services . You know which contains products , services . You know it's vast .

Speaker 1 37:54

So there's so many different things that you can do within it . It's great . I am so excited that you stopped by . I know we were conflicting schedules , but I'm so glad you did because I think this was a conversation that covered so many areas in such a short time .

Speaker 2 38:05

I thank you too . Yeah , it's been really really good fun , and you had to chat about the sci-fi stuff and the consciousness stuff as well is really fun , and to think about how that plays into the whole cyber world is really fun as well . So , yeah , I appreciate it .

Speaker 1 38:17

No , absolutely . Please remember to subscribe to our podcast on various platforms , including Apple , Spotify , iHeartRadio , many more . Thank you for tuning in and take care .